sfc.blue

№ 189 Heaven on Earth

Season 3

Date

2013-09-24

Featuring

Ben, Matt

Length

1:15:53

Category

Theology

Essential

2019-03-21

Great discussion drawing from N. T. Wright's theology. Ben explains how it led to his Catholic conversion.

Future Episodes

  • The Millennium

The spiritual successor to № 176 Spelunking with Socrates.

Ben lays out the common view of heaven and hell.

13:11 Take that, dualists!

NT Wright's Five Acts of God's Plan

God's plan is to unite humanity as his covenant people, more than just saving individuals from hell.

Pentecost is the anti-Babel.

The Church's goal is to restore creation.

Matt is Right: new heaven and new earth is in Revelation chapter 21

Somehow the things we do today affect the new earth.

Ben says the rapture was invented 150 years ago. There were some vague beliefs before Darby in 1830, but the general point of it being a recent belief holds.

Ben's beef with NT Wright: if Christ's mission was unification, why is it OK to be separate from the Catholic church? Protestantism is founded on the belief that it's OK to separate from the church. I think that's a mischaracterization; Luther didn't leave, he was excommunicated.

Three options:

  1. NT Wright is wrong
  2. NT Wright is right, Sola Scriptura is right, and there's no way to resolve doctrinal differences
  3. Jesus left an authority, the Apostles and their successors
1:03:35 Ben says unity is the highest goal of the church. You have admitted that if that is true, then dividing the church is sinful. Where does that leave you as a Protestant? Well, I haven't personally divided any churches, so I feel good about myself.

Unification is the ideal, but doctrinal correctness is a higher goal; otherwise, you would never excommunicate anyone.

If you are protestant, are you perpetuating disunity?

1:06:40 Catholicism and Orthodoxy maintain apostolic succession and don't believe it's OK to exist in division. Divisions are a problem in Protestantism, but it's not uniquely Protestant; the Great Schism is the obvious example. With much smaller doctrinal differences, why is this division OK?

Evangelical is Not Enough

1:12:12 Koby agrees with the view discussed on this episode Oh my gosh, I don't know if I've ever said this but Koby is right! Koby is right! That's horrifying. I recant everything I just said.